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Shotgun

Postby Kempe » Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:27 pm

I'm a very fit, young 60 yo woman(expert in another category) with a carry permit in my NY county.  I was thinking about a Sig Sauer to replace my Colt .38 det.spec. but then decided to go for a shotgun(home defense).  I'm only 5'1", weigh 116 pounds, have never fired a shotgun(or any long gun) and am trying to find a firearms instructor in my area right now.  I am researching shotguns, have come around to the Mossberg 500 20 gauge pump shotgun.  s: this gun will only be fired for target practice and then(hopefully never) home defense.  Is this a good gun for me?  I read that #4 birdshot with #3 buckshot behind it is best.  Should I get this gun? If so, youth stock or pistol grip? Is the ammo correct?  Any advice at all is appreciated greatly.

ANSWER: Hi,

Sounds like  you have made a very good choice for a home defense shotgun.  It is definitely preferred to a handgun.

The Mossberg 500 in 20 gauge is what I would have recommended to you.  Go with the youth stock.  It is designed for smaller statured people and should work well for you.  Avoid the pistol grip.  It will limit your ability to do a lot of things and is difficult to shoot accurately.

As far as the ammo is concerned, the #3 or #4 birdshot would result in a nasty looking superficial wound, but would not have the desired effect of stopping a determined attacker.  I know that some feel it would minimize the chance of over-penetration, but if it doesn't do the job, there is no point in using it for anything except target shooting.

For personal defense, .00 buckshot is likely too much horsepower.  I would recommend that find some #1 buckshot.  That is two steps down from .00 buck and will be very effective again an attacker.  It will also have less recoil and there will be less chance of over-penetration.

I hope this helps you out...best of luck to you.

Regards,

Doug Little

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

Thanks so much, very valuable assistance.  The only Mossberg 500 series(in present catalog at site) without pistol grip(as purchased) in 20 gauge is the model 50452.  Youth stock I guess is aftermarket or can be ordered or requested(if I get from retailer)?  .00 is supposedly too "hot" for a 20 gauge and too much kick; is it difficult to find #1 buckshot(say, at Walmart or Dick's)?  or should I buy it on the internet.  Thank you so much.

ANSWER: Hi,

You might want to check with one of the gun dealers in your area and see if they actually might have a youth model in 20 gauge.  The Mossberg 500 Bantam would work for you.  The barrel is 22" long which is not a big deal.  I just wouldn't recommend that you go with a 28" barrel or something like that which is appropriate for sporting purposes but not as appropriate for home defense.

You also might want to shop around a bit online.  I found this link for the model you referenced(a very nice shotgun by the way...).  http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=84700

It is much less expensive that the MSRP on the Mossberg site.  Shipment would be made to a gun dealer in your area(arrange this in advance with your local gun dealer as you will need their federal firearms license number when you place the order).  The dealer will usually charge a small fee for processing the paperwork.  They should not charge much more than $25-$35 dollars.  If they do, find another dealer.

Walmart doesn't usually carry #1 buckshot.  I don't know about Dick's.  You can easily buy it on the internet...Cabela's would most likely be a good source.

If you end up with the model 50452, see how the stock feels before you go out and buy the youth stock as a separate item.  With the shotgun butt on your shoulder, you should be able to comfortably reach the pump action on the fore-end of the gun.  If you have to stretch more than a little, order the youth stock from your local gun dealer.  They should put it on for your for free if you order it from them. Glad to help.

Best regards,

Doug Little

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

last night I spoke with a firearms instructor in my area(NRA instructor) and I will be working with him once range reopens(it's closing for hunting season until some time in December).  He said the 20 gauge has a bigger kick than the 12, suggested I buy a Remington 870(which is presently on sale at Gander's Mountain for $269.)  He told me to buy slugs for it.  Because the range is closing I won't have any opportunity to shoot any shotgun(to see what I'm comfortable with).  I think a 12 gauge might be a bit much for me.  He mentioned that the Mossberg "jams" sometimes and the Remingtons never do.  What do you think?

So:

1.  Is the Remington a better choice(does the Mossberg jam?)

2.  Is the 12 gauge something I should think about instead of the 20 gauge and are slugs the ammo of choice in a 12 gauge

3.  If I have to put the gun to my shoulder to fire it(in an emergency with an intruder), doesn't that create a time frame long enough for someone to come at me, and is the pistol grip a better option given the fact that I'm buying this gun for defense and might not have time to put it to my shoulder?

4.  Should I purchase a red dot site?

I saved the site you imbedded and will go over to store to look at these weapons and ask some questions.  I will also locate a firearms dealer should I decide to purchase online. And I'm also checking out the Mossberg 500 Bantam youth model(don't know if I can see it in person), as you suggested.  I've volunteered on this site a very long time and I know how multiple followups can be a nuisance but your advice is so good I just had to touch base again.  THANK YOU.
Kempe
 
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:30 am

Shotgun

Postby Wemilat » Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:24 am

I'm a very fit, young 60 yo woman(expert in another category) with a carry permit in my NY county.  I was thinking about a Sig Sauer to replace my Colt .38 det.spec. but then decided to go for a shotgun(home defense).  I'm only 5'1", weigh 116 pounds, have never fired a shotgun(or any long gun) and am trying to find a firearms instructor in my area right now.  I am researching shotguns, have come around to the Mossberg 500 20 gauge pump shotgun.  s: this gun will only be fired for target practice and then(hopefully never) home defense.  Is this a good gun for me?  I read that #4 birdshot with #3 buckshot behind it is best.  Should I get this gun? If so, youth stock or pistol grip? Is the ammo correct?  Any advice at all is appreciated greatly.

ANSWER: Hi,

Sounds like  you have made a very good choice for a home defense shotgun.  It is definitely preferred to a handgun.

The Mossberg 500 in 20 gauge is what I would have recommended to you.  Go with the youth stock.  It is designed for smaller statured people and should work well for you.  Avoid the pistol grip.  It will limit your ability to do a lot of things and is difficult to shoot accurately.

As far as the ammo is concerned, the #3 or #4 birdshot would result in a nasty looking superficial wound, but would not have the desired effect of stopping a determined attacker.  I know that some feel it would minimize the chance of over-penetration, but if it doesn't do the job, there is no point in using it for anything except target shooting.

For personal defense, .00 buckshot is likely too much horsepower.  I would recommend that find some #1 buckshot.  That is two steps down from .00 buck and will be very effective again an attacker.  It will also have less recoil and there will be less chance of over-penetration.

I hope this helps you out...best of luck to you.

Regards,

Doug Little

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

Thanks so much, very valuable assistance.  The only Mossberg 500 series(in present catalog at site) without pistol grip(as purchased) in 20 gauge is the model 50452.  Youth stock I guess is aftermarket or can be ordered or requested(if I get from retailer)?  .00 is supposedly too "hot" for a 20 gauge and too much kick; is it difficult to find #1 buckshot(say, at Walmart or Dick's)?  or should I buy it on the internet.  Thank you so much.

ANSWER: Hi,

You might want to check with one of the gun dealers in your area and see if they actually might have a youth model in 20 gauge.  The Mossberg 500 Bantam would work for you.  The barrel is 22" long which is not a big deal.  I just wouldn't recommend that you go with a 28" barrel or something like that which is appropriate for sporting purposes but not as appropriate for home defense.

You also might want to shop around a bit online.  I found this link for the model you referenced(a very nice shotgun by the way...).  http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=84700

It is much less expensive that the MSRP on the Mossberg site.  Shipment would be made to a gun dealer in your area(arrange this in advance with your local gun dealer as you will need their federal firearms license number when you place the order).  The dealer will usually charge a small fee for processing the paperwork.  They should not charge much more than $25-$35 dollars.  If they do, find another dealer.

Walmart doesn't usually carry #1 buckshot.  I don't know about Dick's.  You can easily buy it on the internet...Cabela's would most likely be a good source.

If you end up with the model 50452, see how the stock feels before you go out and buy the youth stock as a separate item.  With the shotgun butt on your shoulder, you should be able to comfortably reach the pump action on the fore-end of the gun.  If you have to stretch more than a little, order the youth stock from your local gun dealer.  They should put it on for your for free if you order it from them. Glad to help.

Best regards,

Doug Little

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

last night I spoke with a firearms instructor in my area(NRA instructor) and I will be working with him once range reopens(it's closing for hunting season until some time in December).  He said the 20 gauge has a bigger kick than the 12, suggested I buy a Remington 870(which is presently on sale at Gander's Mountain for $269.)  He told me to buy slugs for it.  Because the range is closing I won't have any opportunity to shoot any shotgun(to see what I'm comfortable with).  I think a 12 gauge might be a bit much for me.  He mentioned that the Mossberg "jams" sometimes and the Remingtons never do.  What do you think?

So:

1.  Is the Remington a better choice(does the Mossberg jam?)

2.  Is the 12 gauge something I should think about instead of the 20 gauge and are slugs the ammo of choice in a 12 gauge

3.  If I have to put the gun to my shoulder to fire it(in an emergency with an intruder), doesn't that create a time frame long enough for someone to come at me, and is the pistol grip a better option given the fact that I'm buying this gun for defense and might not have time to put it to my shoulder?

4.  Should I purchase a red dot site?

I saved the site you imbedded and will go over to store to look at these weapons and ask some questions.  I will also locate a firearms dealer should I decide to purchase online. And I'm also checking out the Mossberg 500 Bantam youth model(don't know if I can see it in person), as you suggested.  I've volunteered on this site a very long time and I know how multiple followups can be a nuisance but your advice is so good I just had to touch base again.  THANK YOU.
Wemilat
 
Posts: 39
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 6:26 am

Shotgun

Postby Sorrell » Sat Dec 10, 2016 1:09 pm

Hi,

Now I am in a somewhat difficult situation.  Based on what you have told me the "NRA Instructor" has told you, I have to respectfully disagree.

Based on my own personal experience, the information you have been given is incorrect.  It is a physical impossibility based on the laws of physics for a 20 gauge shotgun to kick more than a 12 gauge shotgun. As as a reality check, I spoke with two other instructors and asked their opinion.  They both agreed with me.  This is why shotgun manufacturers sell 20 gauge shotguns as 'youth models'.  Does it make logical sense to you that manufacturers would sell a gun that has MORE recoil to kids and a shotgun that has LESS recoil to adults and law enforcement?  Why would all tactical shotguns used by the military and law enforcement be less powerful that those sold for use by kids?

Second, for the record, in over 20 years of shotgun shooting, I have NEVER seen a problem with a Mossberg pump shotgun.  I cannot say the same things about a Remington 870.  In fairness, there are many law enforcement agencies that like the Remington a great deal.  I would not chose one personally based on the placement of the action release and the safety.  

The Mossberg has an ambidextrous safety on the tang(back) of the receiver.  The Remington safety is located at the rear of the trigger guard.  Disengaging the Mossberg safety works the same regardless of which hand you use.  If you try to disengage the safety with your left hand on the Remington, your hand is on the wrong side and you must reach underneath the trigger guard.  There are some other small issues that would make me prefer the Mossberg vs. the Remington, but they are mostly personal preference.

You can probably do some shopping around at various dealers and find a Mossberg 500 in 20 gauge that is roughly comparable in price.  Trust me, a home defense shotgun is not the place to go bargain hunting...you want something that is utterly reliable that you can bet your life will shoot when you need it to shoot.

I also cannot believe he told you to buy 'slugs' for your shotgun.  By doing so, you will introduce the highest possible recoil.  Slugs recoil more than any other shotgun load.  In addition, you are completely losing the advantage of a shotgun, specifically it has a 'shot pattern' that allows you to be a little inaccurate(not unusual under stress).  If you shoot .00 buckshot, you are launching nine .33 caliber pellets at your target simultaneously.  If you were to use #1 buckshot, you would be launching 16 .30 caliber pellets at your target simultaneously.

Most shotguns at a range of 15 ft. would deliver this pattern in a circle between 7-10" in diameter.  This provides a margin of error in case you are not 'exactly' on target.  If you shoot a slug, you are shooting one single projectile.  Granted, it is a large projectile, but it is only one.  If you are not accurate, you could miss.  

The entire reason that a shotgun is superior for home defense is because you don't have to be real accurate and you still deliver devastating firepower against your adversary.

In answer to your question about the pistol grip, I do not recommend them for home defense use.  You must have a VERY strong wrist to stand up to the recoil of a pistol grip.  If you don't believe me, find someone that rents one and shoot it first.  I think I know what your decision might be.  As far as having to shoulder a shotgun, it is unnecessary in a home defense situation.  A good, knowledgable instructor would show you how to trap the stock under your arm while pointing the shotgun at the target at roughly waist-level.  This is a basic skill I teach in all my defensive shotgun courses.

Red dot sights will do you very little good at short range with a shotgun.  Certainly they have some value, but relying on anything that has a battery is a bad idea.  Batteries have an annoying tendency to 'crap out' at the worst possible moment.  Quality red dot sights are also very expensive.  Even the cheap ones will come close to the cost of your shotgun and most will have to be installed by a gunsmith at an additional charge.

I URGE YOU to seek out advice from someone other than the instructor you spoke to.  While the advice he has given you might be sound for someone on a police tactical team, it is COMPLETELY inappropriate for the situation you have described to me.  I would not only think twice, but maybe three or four times about seeking training from this person based on what you have told me.

As an NRA Training Counselor(Instructor of Instructors in NRA parlance...) I have seen many good NRA instructors.  Unfortunately, there are some that do not achieve the high standards of knowledge that they should aspire to.  The NRA is actually in the process of trying to cull out a lot of people that received instructor credentials as a result of 'old boy networks' or because their instructor trainers taught them bad information.  I am NOT saying that the person you spoke to is one of these people, only that the quality of NRA instructors you might encounter is "variable" and that you need to do your homework and not blindly accept that someone with an NRA credential means that someone is giving you good or correct info.

I think I've addressed all of your questions.  I hope this helps you out...

Best regards,

Doug
Sorrell
 
Posts: 47
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2014 7:16 pm


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