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Predestination

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Predestination

Postby Beornet » Sat Dec 03, 2016 7:29 pm

thank you for your response, and i think your analogy is a great one.  i dont believe in the true calvanist doctrine....i dont believe in predestination personally other than the way you described it.  i believe that only two people could have remained sinnless: adam and Jesus.  they are the only two not from the seed of man.  jesus had a slight advantage though(sarcasm). i dont believe God makes us sin.  

God has used people for common purpose...e.g. hardening their hearts, how does this fit in?

if predestination is explaining god knowing what we are going to choose, then why is the work used at all?  is there a better greek word or a more clear definition?

can you explain Romans 9.

im kinda playing devils advocate on this for discussion's sake.

thank you for being patient.

------------------------- Followup To - One of my friends just recently started believing in predestination after much studying.  he explained to me everything he believes on the topic and he makes some good points.  

One question(to oppose it) is...why evangelize if God chooses who he wants? i answered that in order for me to believe predest. then i must also believe that God can change his mind on who he chooses. God changed his mind with Moses many times; Moses talked God out of things.

Another thought is that if God says something is just...then it is; i cant argue otherwise.  He chose pharoah for "common use"; he can also choose others.  

The belief on predestination is that if God chooses you, then when you hear the word you will be convicted and will have an  open heart.(not 100% on that)

If this is true then it gives me an overwhelming sense of thankfulness, and i feel lucky.

The fact is that there are a lot of verses to support predest.(that are hard to argue) and not many to oppose.(can be argued away).  i found anohter supporting verse the other day in ACTS 13:48 "appointed" NIV.

im assuming that you dont believe in the Calvanist view of predestination so what verses and reasons are there to refute predest.?
Beornet
 
Posts: 55
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:21 pm

Predestination

Postby Malise » Sat Dec 03, 2016 7:40 pm

- John Calvin is probably the best known advocate of the teaching of unconditional predestination.  Due to this, supporters of the view are often termed "Calvinists."  Here are some of the things Calvin taught, taken from what is possibly his most famous work: THE INSTITUTES OF CHRISTIAN RELIGION, which comprises four volumes.   Calvin asserts that all men are made liable to eternal   death owing to the wonderful counsel of God. God is said   to have arranged "at his own pleasure" the fall of the   first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity. He says   that the depravity of man is a result of God's creation   and that God had expressly approved what preceded from   Himself. Further he says, "the first man fell because   the Lord deemed it meet that he should fall."   [Calvin's Institutes III xxiii 7, 8]

This is the most revealing aspect of unconditional predestination because it lays at God's door the responsibility for the fall of man.  The fall was the act of the first sin. Calvin is saying that this sin was purposed by God to be carried out.  Here we have the root of the tree, the real nature of the beast.

Satan has from the beginning given man to believe that God is not true.  He has deceived man into believing that God is not all good and perfect.

The devil wants us to believe that God, who is light, has desired, purposed or willed(whichever way you want to put it) for evil(sin) to be carried out.  It is a direct attack(though subtle) on the character of God.  Scripture is black and white on this issue:   ...God is light and in him is no darkness at all.   1 JOHN 1:5 NKJ

Also, with regard to a desire in God to/for sin, it goes on to say:   ...God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he himself   tempt anyone.  But each one is tempted when he is drawn   away by his own desires and enticed.   JAMES 1:13-14 NKJ

God neither tempts anyone thus enticing them to sin, nor does He give desires to sin.  He who does not lie cannot at the same time EVER approve of anyone to sin AND to hate sin.  The thing is, this is at the root of unconditional predestination and is a wholly deceitful defamation of God.

By attempting to reconcile God's sovereignty to the fact of evil in the world and its origin, God is said to initiate evil, while in reality He is "light and in him is no darkness at all."

God never wants anyone to sin, yet this is what Calvin is telling us to believe.  It is probably the most fundamental fruit of the doctrine of unconditional predestination, revealing its true source.

The devil who tempted Jesus in the wilderness knows well the Scripture but forever uses it in part and out of context(Mt 4:1-

11) and veils the eyes(2Co 11:3) to the balancing portions of God's Word.  This unconditional predestination doctrine is a complete package of deception full of out of context scriptures and ideas foreign to the very nature of God.

So we are told to believe that God will eventually reject the hypocrites whom "He never loved" in the first place(THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD by A. W. Pink, page 54, 6th ed.). This flies in the face of:   "As I live," says the LORD God, "I have no pleasure in   the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from   his way and live. ...   EZEKIEL 33:11 NKJ

And that "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son"(Jn 3:16).

Satan constantly works to limit the reality of God's love in the mind of man, as well as the work of the cross and the effect of Jesus' blood shed. He hates it.

Limited atonement, therefore, is a "natural" product of unconditional election: Jesus is said to have shed His blood just for "the few" who eventually benefit, and God is said to love only these He has chosen.  If this were so, God is a liar when He says, "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked." Either "God is light and in him is NO darkness AT ALL," or He is not.  Either he loves them or he does not. "Ah! but surely anything God desires comes to pass," it is argued. "If He wanted everyone to be saved, they would be saved; God's will is always done."  This is a profound misunderstanding of the nature of God.

God does not impose His will: it is against His nature.  He never desires sin; He does not will sin.  Yet it is everywhere carried out by fallen men and women, wasteful of the gifts God has given.  

He convicts of sin and commands to repent, but THIS IS RESISTIBLE by the gift of free will within every person.

To then say they are unable to repent and turn of their own accord because God has caused(by an inscrutable wisdom) their nature to be so depraved they cannot choose for God is to call God a liar.  

According to Calvin, God is said to impart depravity to all so that they cannot help but sin. This is defamation of the most serious kind and that upon the living God -- upon the very Creator of the universe.

Evil, sin, and depravation are not facets of God's Being, and they NEVER emanated from Him.  "God is light and in Him is no darkness at all."  He has never decreed that anyone should sin or carry out any form of evil: this never enters His mind.

The honor of God's Name is at stake here.   The enemy is so subtle that he has taught this doctrine   (1Ti 4:1-2) very powerfully.  The truth is that evil   never emanates from God; it never has and it never will   in any form or kind.  The error is that God has at some   point started the process involving man's first sin by   planning it.

God's love is such that no one is made in any shape or form to do evil by God nor is he forced to do any good by God.  The way God is involved in the good in a person's life is by synergy of the two wills in action.

The will of God is never for evil so this He resists.  For good, He is inspiring and encouraging and helps in the process as we will with Him for these things.  He cannot by His very nature impose His will upon our will.  This is the stumbling block of those who currently believe in unconditional predestination.

God never enables someone to do something he himself does not will in his very being.  Even to Christians(many), He is knocking outside the door of their life desiring to come in(Rev 3:18-20).  

And even to them also it is written, "Draw near to God and He will draw near to you"(Jas 4:7-8).

God has self-control, and He exercises it such that His gentleness(Gal 5:22-23) does not allow Him to coerce, drive, impel against someone's will(1Co 13:4-7; Jas 3:17).  Instead He convicts, persuades, corners, etc.  But if someone remains persistently unrepentant, then God releases them to this(Ro 1:25-26, 2Th 2:11-

12).

This is the testimony of Scripture.  God loves all, desires none to sin, has paid the price for all, but only those who will believe will be saved.

It is neither God's intent that any should sin, or that any should be lost.  If He desires none to sin, it follows that He desires none to be lost: If all were not sinning as God desires, then all would be saved as God desires.  This is a natural progression from the fact that "God is light and in him is no darkness at all."   As an outworking of His perfect Nature, God does not   choose some to be saved and leave others to perish;   unconditional election of individuals to salvation is   error.

And here as elsewhere in this text "all" means "all"; there is no part dark just as there is no one wished lost and no one unpaid for.  "All" is never exclusive in this setting.  Unless as with other Scriptures, as a believer in unconditional predestination, you wish to twist its meaning as Satan does and limit the "all" of "God is light and in him is no darkness at ALL" to mean this must exclude the beginning of evil in the world.  Do you?   Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.  Every good   gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes   down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no   variation or shadow of turning.   JAMES 1:16-17 NKJ

So for me, when Jesus said go into all the World and preach the gospel, God wants us to be winning people to God.  We have a vital part of His plan.

Predestination can be summed up in an illustration:  If you took a dog, put him in a cage, and did not feed him for a week, He would be hungry.  Now if you placed two bowls in front of him, one with meat and one with salad, which would he eat?  Of course he would eat the meat.  Why?  Because we know it is the dog's nature to eat meat.  Now does that mean we predestined the dog to eat it?  No the dog choose the meat.  We are a higher intellegence than the dog.  We know how dogs behave.  If we placed a hundred different choices of meat in front of the dog, God would know which one he would eat.  Why?  Because he is God.  The dog still has a choice but God already knows it.

One thing you must remember about predistination.  God is the alpha and omega.  He is both the beginning and the end.  God does not live in time as we do.  God is timeless.  God is living both in creation and in revelation at the same time.  If God is living already in future time, then he already sees what we are going to do.  We still make our own choices, but God sees them already.  So we have both choice and are predestined because God can see it.

Blessings
Malise
 
Posts: 44
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:31 am

Predestination

Postby Tancred » Sun Dec 04, 2016 3:41 am

Blessings and thank you for your questions.

God has used people for common purpose...e.g. hardening their hearts, how does this fit in?   GE 50:19 But Joseph said to them, "Don't be afraid. Am I in the place of God? 20 You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.    God uses the evil ways of man to accomplish his purposes.  The people who do evil, no matter what it is, choose to do it.  God in his plan, knows what evil man will do, and compensates for it.  Romans 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

if predestination is explaining god knowing what we are going to choose, then why is the work used at all? is there a better greek word or a more clear definition?  In my belief, I can find no better explaination.  In God's eternity, he knows what we are going to do.  Therefore, it is predestined, because for God it has already happened.

can you explain Romans 9. Again, God chooses to love and have mercy on man.  He chooses some for special purpose.  Why did he love Israel.  Because in Abraham's time, no one was following after God but him.  Because of the faith of Abraham, God choose him and his decendents.  God is God.  He can choose whomever he wishes.  

Blessings
Tancred
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:58 am

Predestination

Postby Mateo » Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:48 pm

thank you for your response, and i think your analogy is a great one.  i dont believe in the true calvanist doctrine....i dont believe in predestination personally other than the way you described it.  i believe that only two people could have remained sinnless: adam and Jesus.  they are the only two not from the seed of man.  jesus had a slight advantage though(sarcasm). i dont believe God makes us sin.  

God has used people for common purpose...e.g. hardening their hearts, how does this fit in?

if predestination is explaining god knowing what we are going to choose, then why is the work used at all?  is there a better greek word or a more clear definition?

can you explain Romans 9.

im kinda playing devils advocate on this for discussion's sake.

thank you for being patient.

------------------------- Followup To - One of my friends just recently started believing in predestination after much studying.  he explained to me everything he believes on the topic and he makes some good points.  

One question(to oppose it) is...why evangelize if God chooses who he wants? i answered that in order for me to believe predest. then i must also believe that God can change his mind on who he chooses. God changed his mind with Moses many times; Moses talked God out of things.

Another thought is that if God says something is just...then it is; i cant argue otherwise.  He chose pharoah for "common use"; he can also choose others.  

The belief on predestination is that if God chooses you, then when you hear the word you will be convicted and will have an  open heart.(not 100% on that)

If this is true then it gives me an overwhelming sense of thankfulness, and i feel lucky.

The fact is that there are a lot of verses to support predest.(that are hard to argue) and not many to oppose.(can be argued away).  i found anohter supporting verse the other day in ACTS 13:48 "appointed" NIV.

im assuming that you dont believe in the Calvanist view of predestination so what verses and reasons are there to refute predest.?
Mateo
 
Posts: 44
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2014 5:47 pm


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