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Legality of a Spay/neuter contract?

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Legality of a Spay/neuter contract?

Postby sylvester37 » Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:11 pm

Okay. I was wondering can breeders really enforce a spay/neuter contract?
I have heard from both sides. I'm just stating what I've been told. Don't get mad. I'm asking because I want to find out the truth from other breeders and legal people even. I'm simply asking a question.

I have heard that the contract can be held in court and that the breeder has every right over that dog because they are the breeder. If you sign the contract you have to honor all parts of it and the breeder still holds some ownership of the puppy and what happens to the puppy in their future. That even though I bought the dog the breeder has rights over the dog because it is from her kennels. The bloodline is her property so she has rights over the dog and me.

However, I have also heard from people that spay/neuter contracts are civil contracts that are simply an agreement between the buyer and the breeder, and that THEY DON'T HAVE ANY LEGAL STANDING.

The reason people have told me is that once a dog is sold, it is sold, case close. These people state that legally a breeder can't make restriction on the dog because: a dog is considered property, under all extents and purposes. Having restrictive contracts on property you will own is illegal. If you buy it and they sell it their control and ownership end once they take the money and hand over the puppy.

I've heard that once a breeder sells the dog WHETHER YOU SIGN A CONTRACT OR NOT, the breeder:
1. can not make any future decisions for the dog or what you do with the dog once you buy it.
2. cannot withhold the AKC papers, for any reason, if the dog was to be sold as a AKC dog with the papers therefore the breeder must give them to the buyer or face consequences, such as a lawsuit for not giving you your property that you paid for.
3. cannot demand or require the rights to your dog at any time or reason including, using your dog for future breedings to their dogs and keeping the puppies. You have the right to decide to breed the dog and you have the right to compensation for your dog's services, a stud fee, or the right to keep all puppies if your dog is the female unless you come to an agreement.
4. cannot require you to return the dog to them once you buy it because they can't take the dog back once it is sold to you. The dog is your property and you can do with it what you want. The breeder can suggest that you can return it if you are no longer able to keep it but they can't mandate it.
5. has no power! Once they take the payment and hand over the dog, it is now your property. A dog is property just like a car, or anything else you buy and once you buy it you obtain all rights and control over it as the owner of it. And new owner have all legal rights and standings to their new dog and the breeder has zero power over you or the dog or what you do with it.
6. cannot sue for or demand damages if the dog is bred or something happens because, the dog is YOUR property and damages can only be claimed on something that IS THEIR PROPERTY. And that bloodlines cannot be considered thier property because once they handover the puppy they agreed to give full ownership to the buyer, including the puppies bloodline, papers, and anything else related to the dog. The bloodline is something that tells the history of the dog, holding no true value, and therefore cannot be patented or have a value to it; therefore, still no damages can be claimed.
7. cannot demand the dog back for any reason. The dog is your property once paid for and they cannot demand the dog. They cannot take the dog from you and if they do they can be sued for the full value paid for the dog or be prosecuted legally for thieft of property and if the buyer paid over 1000 for the dog, the breeder can be sued for the dog to be returned and face "federal charges" for grand thieft because the dog is valued over 1000 if that is what the buyer paid for the dog and can provide proof. If the breeder takes it, they can be charged and face severe federal penalties for stealing property.

Okay this is the arguements I've heard and I'm just wondering which one is right? I mean I want to get a puppy and I want to know if I have to honor the contract or if like the other people are telling me once the breeder takes the money the dog is now my dog and the breeder has no legal control over what I do with the dog. I'm just wondering because I want to know what are my true rights when I buy the dog? I want to know who is right? please help. I want to be prepared when I decide to buy a dog I really want and know what to do if the breeder throws a contract at me. I want to know my rights.
Thank everyone for your time.
Answers from people that have dealt with this issue are REALLY appreciated. :)
sylvester37
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 6:53 am

Legality of a Spay/neuter contract?

Postby hewlett » Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:12 pm

Okay. I was wondering can breeders really enforce a spay/neuter contract?
I have heard from both sides. I'm just stating what I've been told. Don't get mad. I'm asking because I want to find out the truth from other breeders and legal people even. I'm simply asking a question.

I have heard that the contract can be held in court and that the breeder has every right over that dog because they are the breeder. If you sign the contract you have to honor all parts of it and the breeder still holds some ownership of the puppy and what happens to the puppy in their future. That even though I bought the dog the breeder has rights over the dog because it is from her kennels. The bloodline is her property so she has rights over the dog and me.

However, I have also heard from people that spay/neuter contracts are civil contracts that are simply an agreement between the buyer and the breeder, and that THEY DON'T HAVE ANY LEGAL STANDING.

The reason people have told me is that once a dog is sold, it is sold, case close. These people state that legally a breeder can't make restriction on the dog because: a dog is considered property, under all extents and purposes. Having restrictive contracts on property you will own is illegal. If you buy it and they sell it their control and ownership end once they take the money and hand over the puppy.

I've heard that once a breeder sells the dog WHETHER YOU SIGN A CONTRACT OR NOT, the breeder:
1. can not make any future decisions for the dog or what you do with the dog once you buy it.
2. cannot withhold the AKC papers, for any reason, if the dog was to be sold as a AKC dog with the papers therefore the breeder must give them to the buyer or face consequences, such as a lawsuit for not giving you your property that you paid for.
3. cannot demand or require the rights to your dog at any time or reason including, using your dog for future breedings to their dogs and keeping the puppies. You have the right to decide to breed the dog and you have the right to compensation for your dog's services, a stud fee, or the right to keep all puppies if your dog is the female unless you come to an agreement.
4. cannot require you to return the dog to them once you buy it because they can't take the dog back once it is sold to you. The dog is your property and you can do with it what you want. The breeder can suggest that you can return it if you are no longer able to keep it but they can't mandate it.
5. has no power! Once they take the payment and hand over the dog, it is now your property. A dog is property just like a car, or anything else you buy and once you buy it you obtain all rights and control over it as the owner of it. And new owner have all legal rights and standings to their new dog and the breeder has zero power over you or the dog or what you do with it.
6. cannot sue for or demand damages if the dog is bred or something happens because, the dog is YOUR property and damages can only be claimed on something that IS THEIR PROPERTY. And that bloodlines cannot be considered thier property because once they handover the puppy they agreed to give full ownership to the buyer, including the puppies bloodline, papers, and anything else related to the dog. The bloodline is something that tells the history of the dog, holding no true value, and therefore cannot be patented or have a value to it; therefore, still no damages can be claimed.
7. cannot demand the dog back for any reason. The dog is your property once paid for and they cannot demand the dog. They cannot take the dog from you and if they do they can be sued for the full value paid for the dog or be prosecuted legally for thieft of property and if the buyer paid over 1000 for the dog, the breeder can be sued for the dog to be returned and face "federal charges" for grand thieft because the dog is valued over 1000 if that is what the buyer paid for the dog and can provide proof. If the breeder takes it, they can be charged and face severe federal penalties for stealing property.

Okay this is the arguements I've heard and I'm just wondering which one is right? I mean I want to get a puppy and I want to know if I have to honor the contract or if like the other people are telling me once the breeder takes the money the dog is now my dog and the breeder has no legal control over what I do with the dog. I'm just wondering because I want to know what are my true rights when I buy the dog? I want to know who is right? please help. I want to be prepared when I decide to buy a dog I really want and know what to do if the breeder throws a contract at me. I want to know my rights.
Thank everyone for your time.
Answers from people that have dealt with this issue are REALLY appreciated. :)
Any time you sign a contract, it is legal and binding. I don't really know why you are questioning this anyway. Just get the dog fixed and there will be no issue. Once the surgery is complete, the breeder has no further interest in whatever you do with the dog. They are just being a responsible breeder by enforcing this rule.
hewlett
 
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Legality of a Spay/neuter contract?

Postby jerard » Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:13 pm

spayed/neutered dogs turn out to be better pets and the bonus benefit of a lesser cancer risk of certain organ's (only do so if you have no plans of breeding).
jerard
 
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Legality of a Spay/neuter contract?

Postby kendrix » Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:16 pm

I know a fabulous show breeder who I feel is probably the most respectable dog person I have ever met. She can and does file lawsuits when someone breeds her pet quality pups. She has filed 7 cases, and won 7 cases. It is very simple. When the contract says "do this, and I'm going to sue you for $10,000 and you will return my pup, and all of it's pups to me immediately" and the purchaser signs it, then breeds the pup anyway, they are completely in the wrong. All she has ever had to do in civil court is prove that a litter was bred (pretty easy when these sleaze balls are all over Kijiji and Craigslist selling off their non registrable pups). The court will also enforce the order to return the pup and it's offspring (if the dam was the breeders) by having police play "puppy escorters." It's not funny that she has to go to these extremes, but a cop car full of large breed pups in the backseat is pretty funny to think about!

What you've heard about the breeder not being able to withhold AKC papers is ludicrous. The breeder registers each pup either as "limited" or "full." This means the breeder is telling the AKC what paperwork to create. The AKC does not, under ANY circumstance, remove the non breeding (or "R," or "limited" restriction) without a written request from the breeder. A pup with limited registration that has a litter will never have AKC registered pups, limited or otherwise. The purchaser did NOT pay for full registration, and therefore have absolutely no entitlement to it.

Most contracts state that hells yes, she breeder is free to come visit your home at any time, and if she finds it unsuitable for her pup, take the pup back, no refund given.

And YES YOU HAVE TO HONOR THE CONTRACT! Do not, ever, sign a contract if you have no intention of respecting it. If that is your intention than I can almost guarantee you the breeder will see right through you. Think about it. If the contract means nothing, then the breeder can come to your house and take her pup back anytime. She can refuse to honor the "take back" clause that all good breeders include, and she can refuse to refund you if your pups ends up with severe hip displasia, or a disease she guaranteed you the pup wouldn't get through genetics. Contracts protect both parties, not just the purchaser, and sometimes the purchasers tend to forget this.
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Legality of a Spay/neuter contract?

Postby fychan97 » Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:20 pm

"Baby Skeletor" is completely correct. A contract is a contract. You sign it, you must adhere to it or face the consequences stated in said contract. Which could involve loss of the dog in question, fines, or other issues.

You sign a contract stating you will neuter a puppy at a certain age, then go and breed it, the breeder has every right to be pissed off and take action. A good breeder has taken the time to carefully select and breed their animals to be the best they can be...then some person who buys a pet quality puppy from them and decides to breed it is essentially like throwing a big middle finger to the breeder who you bought that puppy from....

Edit: You can register a neutered dog with AKC. It IS a limited registry and is used to simply keep track of dogs. It also allows you to participate in other AKC events, like agility. A Limited registry is exactly the same as the ones you would get with a dog with a spay/neuter contract...it proves the dog's breed, shows its heritage, and allows the AKC to keep track of numbers of registered dogs.
fychan97
 
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Legality of a Spay/neuter contract?

Postby gustav » Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:33 pm

You sign a legal contract then you have to follow it or face the consequence. If you didn't want to S/N then you should go with a breeder that would let you keep them intact if S/N is such a big deal for you. Its taken awhile but I have found one that I like the looks of.

One breeder I was considering allows you to keep the dog intact but if the ***** becomes pregnant they take the ***** away and all pups plus you are charged $1,000 PER PUP. This is legal contract that she has had people fight in court and she wins.

S/N dog can be registered under limited registration.
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Legality of a Spay/neuter contract?

Postby zadok » Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:43 pm

Signed contracts are binding. You have the right not to sign the contract and the breeder has the right not to sell you the puppy if you don't sign the contract.

Responsible breeders do require a spay/neuter on their pet puppies and they will put a limited registration on the pet puppy. This means you can register the puppy you buy but none of the offspring of this pet puppy can be registered if you decide not to spay/neuter the puppy. Responsible breeders show their dogs and do health testing on all their breeding stock to assure that buyers get the healthiest puppy possible. No a breeder cannot with hold the papers from a buyer. If the breeder does with hold papers you can report them to AKC and the breeder can have his/hers AKC privileges pulled for up to 10 yrs.or permanently and given a big fine.

Responsible breeders do require that the puppy/dog be returned to them if for some reason the buyer can't keep the dog. This is for the protection of the dog in the future.

Responsible breeders will not reserve breeding rights on a pet puppy. The pet is to be spayed/neutered. This is only for a show prospect puppy that the breeder co-ownes.

I think you are getting worked up for nothing. If signing a contract is such a big deal for you then there are thousands of BYB/puppy mills with web sites that will be happy to sell you a puppy and have no contract and don't care what happens to the puppy once it leaves their home and they have their money. They are not responsible breeders but the choice is yours. Keep in mind these type of breeders do no health testing and don't want to hear from you if your pup/dog shows any genetic conditions. They will not help you with medical cost. Out of site out of mind. Having AKC papers on a sire and dam does not mean it is a responsible breeder. Responsible breeders care about their breed and the contract is to protect the pup.

ADD: Yes you can register a spayed/neutered dog and a limited registration dog. If it where illegal AKC wouldn't do it. Who ever told you that is wrong. These dogs can compete in obediance, rally or other AKC dog sports. If you are only interested in breeding I wouldn't sell you a puppy. If having a healthy pet to love isn't enough then you won't find a responsible breeder to sell you one. It sounds like you just want to argue.
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Legality of a Spay/neuter contract?

Postby jaren12 » Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:46 pm

Breeders that enforce spay and neuter contracts usually end up selling dogs that'll be bred either way. AKC offers a breeder the right to sell a dog with limited or full registration. If a client buys a dog with full registration, the breeder has openly given an open door for the person to breed the dog. Regardless of a spay/neuter contract. They had that choice to "ban" breeding of that dog when they sold it. A breeder who limits the registration basically is selling the dog with papers BUT that dog will not be honored by the kennel club if it's bred. Therefore deeming the litter worthless and un-registerable. A breeder reserves the right to spay and neuter puppies before they go to their new homes as long as it was stated in their contract that they would do so. These puppies can still have full registration. Full registration only opens the door for the dog to be able to be shown in competitions, compete in kennel club agility meets and be able to participate in all kennel club events. It doesn't mean full registration can only be given if the puppy is left in tact. A breeder who makes the client agree to a spay neuter contract can hold the papers until proof of spay or neuter has been performed and as long as it was stated clearly, agreed and signed by both parties in a contract. If there wasn't a document saying... No papers until fixed, they cannot hold registration from you. For a breeder to be that deeply concerned, they specifically sell dogs as pets or breeding stock. Breeding stock is usually doubled the price of a pet. Also, breeders who are wanting and actually caring to take extra precautions will fix the animals being sold as pets only before they leave with their new owners. These are the hoops a serious breeder must go through to limit the use of their bloodlines. If they fail to do these things, the "spay/neuter" agreement is basically bogus and usually will not stand up in court. Assuming the breeder cared enough to even file a claim against you.
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Legality of a Spay/neuter contract?

Postby choviohoya » Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:00 pm

Depends ENTIRELY on how the contract is worded(does it follow contract law in your area), and what the contract actually says.

As for who's right - ask yourself this, if you don't want to honor the contract why should the breeder do the same for you? You break one part of the contract the WHOLE thing becomes null and void which means say you do something irresponsible like breeding a pet quality animal and come to find out your dog has x genetic condition. Said condition is covered in your health guarantee. Guess what? You are entitled to NOTHING in regards to breeder support because you already broke the contract by breeding your dog. No refund, no vet bills repaid, no replacement animal.

YES spayed/neutered animals can be registered. Full or Limited - it doesn't matter.

"Umm if the dog is not breeding quality for any reason why are they being sold as pets " Because PETS are not breeding material.

"so that the buyer might have to pay a fortune for the dog because it is not a good quality dog."Just because a dog is marked as pet quality does not mean they are poor quality. It means they aren't suitable for showing/working/breeding. That has no bearing on whether they will make a good pet.
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Legality of a Spay/neuter contract?

Postby salvadore94 » Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:15 pm

a dog can be registered if they are fixed they can even show seen someone do this as practice and another that was pulled into the ring to make it a specialty.

i am getting a show dog and the breeder does enforce the contract for her dogs going to pet homes. dogs going to show homes get two options you either show or event the dog or spay/neuter but the dog can only be bred if it is a CH otherwise your dog is going back to the breeder.

co-ownership contract.

puppy quality isnt lesser quality all the time sometimes the show/event breeders just dont think they have what it takes temperament wise for the ring some hate the ring some love it the idea is why force a dog that hates the ring to be in one when they can be a great pet? the price is high because when a breeder breeds they test the parents & then the pups tests such as BAER, OFA,CERF.

show breeder or event breeder does NOT mean reputable...there are good and bad in every sport i even know at least 2 in my breed i consider horrible..at least in the US. and one man in ibiza...

low quality or badly bred usually comes from back yard breeders that do not have a specific goal in mind other than breeding for money or fun.
they probably should make a distinction between a show dog thats been labeled Pet quality just because it doesnt like the ring or does not fit the breeders version of the standard but still fits the standard...i know some do others dont because it confuses ppl.

Back yard bred pekingese (pet quality ):http://puppydogweb.com/gallery/pekingeses/pekingese_anasatasovska.jpg

well bred or show Q with either porblem with the ring or not fitting breeders idea or simply no show homes coming forward: http://www.google.com/imgres?q=pekingese&um=1&hl=en&client=opera&sa=G&rls=en&channel=suggest&biw=1246&bih=639&tbm=isch&tbnid=UwsoWx4R2ly-HM:&imgrefurl=http://www.allpetsradio.com/articlepc.php%3Fid%3D108&docid=lqrRNl8ekJCJEM&imgurl=http://www.allpetsradio.com/images/Pekingese_280x210.jpg&w=280&h=210&ei=g7iqTunyMaHYiAKqvJmvCw&zoom=1
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